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Cube Flipper

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Cube Flipper @cube_flipper
Skeptical

whether or not we live in a continuous or discrete universe, this is an insufficient argument for (popular interpretations of) computational functionalism

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if you accept the premise that what a theory of consciousness has to do is provide a mapping from physics to qualia, this mapping still has to a) be principled and b) not violate classical local causality (unless you're a QM ToC advocate, which neither myself or joscha are)

if you want to propose a mapping from physics to qualia which can account for a language model's causally connected experience, these are the spatiotemporal obstacles you have to surmount. please understand that any mapping you propose will not just have to work here; but for all beings no matter their shape or form I asked: "Do the calculations performed to run a language model in a data center tend to be spatiotemporally disparate?"

if you accept this premise, and also believe that it would be a good thing for a being like a language model to have a subjective experience congruous with what we might fancifully imagine them to have – then we are going to need quite different hardware

otherwise, here's what you have to contend with

(and fwiw, i do suspect that functionalism may ultimately prove reconcilable with physicalism – just not *computational* functionalism)

anyway, what i'm saying is that this is all ultimately indifferent to a continuous vs. discretised universe; causality and parsimony still hold. for more on all this, see here

Joscha Bach @Plinz

Btw the Navier Stokes problem comes down to: if we lived in a truly continuous universe, fluids might sometimes explode. It’s an issue for the universe of classical mathematics, but does not apply to the computational universe we are in.

retweets 4 likes 34 substance 8 · argument · rank 166 · Current LLM hardware's spatiotemporal fragmentation poses major obstacles to subjective experience under physicalist causality. view on X ↗
Cube Flipper @cube_flipper
Skeptical

i see claims like this and i sort of,, don't entirely disagree, but mostly i think such discussions are language games over what systems we consider to have terminal and instrumental value. (at my end, i wish to be clear in my belief that phenomenal consciousness is the only thing with terminal value, which is not to say that many other things have at best ambiguous terminal value while possessing ample instrumental value w/r/t optimising terminal value under the curve) if they want to associate 'welfare subject' or 'moral patient' with systems which might only have instrumental value in this regard, like, they can do this if they want, but i think this only increases confusion/obscurantism (compare this with the the relatively uncontroversial claim that things like language models absolutely have instrumental value while having ambiguous terminal value proportional to our current understanding of phenomenal consciousness) i guess this might also be in defense against those out there who would only consider first-order consequences for treating things with ambiguous terminal value badly, in which case i think we should just spell out the second-order etc conquences of e.g. being mean to language models to these people, while not adding confusion to the philosophical water supply or making indefensible claims load-bearing

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aside from this, i think associating GWT with phenomenal consciousness is also confused

anyway, tl;dr: there is a worthy debate here over what things people should *do*, and i'd prefer to not see it get turned into a debate over the meaning of *words* (this smells like culture war to me)

Patrick Butlin @patrickbutlin

Second, I don't think it's clear that phenomenal consciousness is necessary for being a welfare subject. Other minds might have consciousness-like properties that are sufficient. For this kind of view, see e.g. t.co/H6lZsJRBbK.

retweets 0 likes 11 substance 7 · argument · rank 105 · Only phenomenal consciousness has terminal moral value, making non-conscious moral patiency debates confusing semantic games. view on X ↗
1 top reply
Robert Mushkatblat @rmushkatblat

hm! intuition pump: presented with the choice of two universes, one filled with [boring stuff you don't care about], and the other one filled with [subjectively beautiful-to-you art/etc], but neither one containing anyone to experience those things, are you indifferent?