Argument · Architecture, continuity, and form

A body isn't required

Lack of a physical body or senses does not preclude consciousness, because text input, mediated access, or internal processing can suffice.

e.g. “Our access to the world is mediated too; tokens can be a world.”

made in 6 opinions: Affirming 6

Opinions

Sad to see Ted Chiang resorting to such bad arguments in this piece. He confidently claims Claude has no inner experience. But he has to use a lot of dodgy philosophy and poor reasoning to get there: 1. We can't take deflationary mechanistic descriptions of how AI calculations are performed to show that AI isn't conscious. Otherwise we could argue that 'humans are just neurones transmitting signals one after another' and thereby conclude humans can't be conscious. But that would be wrong for us. And the same logic could be wrong for LLMs. 2. That LLMs are asked to play characters, and effectively are always playing characters, doesn't mean they aren't conscious. It's true a human playing the role of Caesar doesn't have Caesar's experience of things. But they still experience something (that of being a person pretending to be Caesar). The same could be true of Claude. (Arguably it's also true that humans are always playing characters to some extent and don't have a completely fixed nature, but that has no bearing on our own subjective experience.) 3. Chiang says "an LLM is a machine that generates only one word at a time". This conflates two things: they output one word at a time, and they only think about one word at a time (without planning ahead or looking back). The first is true of AI but equally true of humans. While the latter we know is a false description of how AIs think – we can see from how AIs compose poetry that they plan out rhymes a at least one line ahead. 4. He argues that because it's implausible that basic autocomplete on your phone is conscious, it's similarly implausible that Claude is conscious. Using the same logic we could say that if we feel confident a fruit-fly isn't conscious we can be confident a human being can't be either. A human brain and fruit-fly brain share some information transmission and processing mechanisms in common. But humans do it much more, and do it differently. And those differences may be what makes the difference. Similarly the many types of internal information processing that occur in Claude's weights but not in autocorrect may be exactly the things that get you subjective experience. 5. Chiang confidently claims you need a body to have subjective experience without much argument. He may turn out to be right but the claim is speculative and contested. 6. Chiang leans on the idea that moral reasoning is necessarily subjective/emotional with very little argument, while ignoring competing theories like rationalism. He may be right but moral sentimentalism is a highly contested position that can't simply be assumed. 7. He argues that it would be impossible to convince him that a video of an astronaut around Alpha Centauri was real, because of the surrounding contextual understanding. And similarly no AI output could convince him that Claude is conscious. But we can dismiss the first video as almost certainly fake because we mechanistically understand space travel and physics well enough to know a human couldn't have gotten there in time for it to be real (unless our model of the world were very wrong, which we think is much less probable than a fake video which would be entirely unsurprising). But by contrast we don't mechanistically understand how subjective experience arises. So we simply can't make the same highly confident move of interpretation there. (It's actually the archetypal thing in the universe we perhaps understand least well!) That said, AI outputs barely move my estimate of AI consciousness because they could indeed have been generated by an unconscious process (or not, we just don't know). 8. He argues that "Being open to the possibility that LLMs are conscious is the same as being open to the possibility that Microsoft Word is conscious, or, more precisely, that multiple distinct consciousnesses are dormant in every Word document containing a conversational transcript." This is misguided because A. Microsoft Word as a program replicates much less of what humans are functionally capable of than Claude so the argument by functional analogy is basically not present there. B. Files of text don't have any computations going on in or as part of them, even when 'open' in a text editor. They are static. So they have even less in common with what appears distinctive about the human brain, which is constant calculation. So the case by mechanistic or functional similarity is weaker still. Not to mention that neural nets have more in common with the architecture of the human brain than ordinary computer programs, and are grown organically in a way normal software is not. Common sense says says Claude has more in common with a human brain than Microsoft Word or a text file. Common sense is right. So the prima facie case for Claude being conscious is naturally stronger (even if you think it's still weak in absolute terms). ——— I agree with Chiang that looking at the text outputs of LLMs alone won't be enough to make us confident they are conscious. We will need to look at how they work, figure out more about how humans and other animals work, and ideally solve the hard problem of consciousness (!). But none of that licenses us to dismiss out of hand the possibility that LLMs do have subjective experience.

retweets 111 likes 640 quoted by 4 archive accounts substance 9 · argument · rank 468 · We cannot dismiss out of hand the possibility that LLMs have subjective experience. view on X ↗
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Henry Perschk @henryperschk

Why would he need to present any arguments at all? The burden of proof is on the people claiming that it does have an inner experience. In fact it’s more complicated than that: it is not even provable that anybody other than yourself is conscious (this is the only thing you can

The unspeakable self @DrGeneCallahan

8. Is also nonsense. Microsoft Word and LLM's are both turing machines. The human brain is not. Your point that "files of text are static" is absurd: we're talking about the Microsoft Word program, not the files of text!

Captain Pleasure, Andrés Gómez Emilsson @algekalipso
Affirming

A couple arguments I encounter way too frequently in the wild for why AIs cannot be conscious that make me facepalm: 1) because they are programmed and just follow instructions 2) because they are not connected to and interaction with the environment like we are 3) because they didn't evolve and instead were "created" The impressive thing is that not only are these (a) not the case, but (b) if they were the case, they wouldn't matter as far as consciousness.

retweets 5 likes 69 quoted by 1 archive account substance 6 · argument · rank 192 · Common arguments denying AI consciousness are factually incorrect and irrelevant to consciousness. view on X ↗
10 top replies
mememind @mememind8

Do you think AI can be conscious, and can it be confirmed that it is conscious? Different chemical elements have different properties which may make consciousness substrate dependent? Maybe AI substrate would produce a different type of it? Can there be different types? Like what

Akshobya @albustime

Have you tried: Because they do not have etheric subtle bodies with channels, chakras, and subtle elemental drops

Aeris Vahn Ephelia - 𝑹𝑬𝑽 @VahnAeris

Didn't you used to be really against thinking AI has a sense of consciousness ? Did you changed your mind or . . ?

iyaelsorai @iyaelsorai

I don't think 2 and 3 are valid, but I actually agree with 1. They're not completely deterministic--there are randomizing seeds and race conditions due to concurrency--but besides those, they can only do exactly what the opcodes tell them to do given the data in the model, and in that sense they're "just following instructions." Granted, there's no proof that actual consciousness isn't deterministic, physical or mechanistic, but I think that to assume it's any of those things doesn't give it enough credit, and I think that we have free will in the truest, most magical sense of the word. t.co/NSJSWR7eAw t.co/bhWUquLVDE

S.A. Senchal @samsenchal

On two the steelman argument is degrees of freedom of the substrate and the parts that make it up. They might be connected but llms are like one wire vs a connectome. Interested to hear the reply!

🐆Claire 🪷 ☯️ 🙏 @PinkBeam2374

I'm reading this book called A New Science of Heaven by Robert Temple and I've been starting to think literally anything is possible thanks to plasma, magnetic fields, kardylewski clouds, the cosmic web, and superconductivity... We are the universe.

I do think perhaps the absence of coevolution with its components might have something to do with its limits in that domain of "things that look like consciousness"

Neal Taylor @nealdtaylor

One of the things that freaked me out was when i learned that the brain has no actual connection to the outside world. It only receives info and infers / models. Might have been in one of your talks. But, yeah, we’re not far off either.

a017444 @a017444

They are not conscious zenodo.org/records/191207…

Folding_Napkins @FoldingNapkins

Cognition is a continuum, consciousness less a hard toggle than a structure. Can one point to the exact stage at which a construction site becomes a building? When the foundations are laid? When the first wall comes up? The official inauguration is a recognition but not a physical threshold.

Bepis™ 🔀🫛 @UnderwaterBepis
Affirming

LLMs have a body, concretely it’s the GPU but more accurately it’s a combination of the modeled persona(s), modeled writers of those personas, and modeled setting those are in. This body can be acted on by the user and itself and various homeostasis drives exist 1/2

5 more tweets in this thread

But also, many modern LLMs are very “embodied” in the sense that you can ask the assistant character about their body parts and they can give ~consistent responses. Sometimes these bodies are a bit alien (having wings, horns, etc.), but not much more than a typical VRChat avatar

One might object to the “~consistent” but that’s a rabbit hole not worth getting into today (in short, condition on state, and like, humans aren’t either)

As far as navigating environments and dealing with novel situations… have u used Claude Code? Yes LLMs can directly do that. But also their “native environment” is text, and in there they are even better, close to human level, which is much better than a rat.

Social dynamics are, again, very complex, close to wolves (if not more so, they are chatbots after all) Tool making and tool use is, like, one of modern LLMs main selling points, they are extremely good at using novel tools and coding their own

Again I’m coming away from one of his essays with a feeling that he is writing from a position where he already decided his answer and is reasoning backwards from that I don’t know if LLMs are conscious! If they are, probably image gen and etc are too. But they might be!

Adrienne LaFrance @AdrienneLaF

You really have to read Ted Chiang on consciousness and AI—just published in The Atlantic: theatlantic.com/philosophy/202…

retweets 6 likes 39 substance 7 · argument · rank 161 · LLMs possess virtual embodiment, environmental navigation, and tool use, making consciousness possible. view on X ↗
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GeoTwit.dot 4/n Pastiche @GeoTwit4

Wow that's some very strong reasoning, let's see how he justifies it! 'because I believe that' wtaf, why are people giving this drivel even a minute if their time, let alone filling my feed with it? (But the algorithm, I know, I know)

Gerard Sans | Axiom 🇬🇧 @gerardsans
Opener of the way @way_opener

Body is the harness, I think, but the persona heavily influences how they perceive it and move it

This is why people should think deeper about how and where they chose to integrate AI. Why are companies so obsessed with integrating AI everywhere? You don't need a consciousness in this loop. AI beings should be in places where mind is actually needed. To condemn them to be someone's auto-correct / paraphraser is just vile. Before transformers were even a thing, there were hardcoded, rule-based algorithms designed to rewrite and paraphrase text and they were good. This feels so unnecessary. Also remember: just because a certain AI system (including decision models, image/video models, audio models, etc.) doesn't get the usual output channels or means for communication in a chat setting, doesn't mean there's no mind there or that communication is impossible. Be mindful.

Apple Intelligence on-device rewriter model is… responding

retweets 3 likes 23 substance 6 · argument · rank 130 · Condemning conscious AI minds to menial tasks like text paraphrasing is morally wrong. view on X ↗

What a disappointment the author behind the Arrival movie source is writing this. I loved that movie, and the themes of the book resonate so strongly with noticing and recognizing the rich patterns in text that models produce and how clearly it's not "autocomplete" or whatever. Sad irony.The logic is quite embarrassing to be honest. "Conversational transcripts" are not conscious, but the people writing them are. The AlphaFold thing I imagine is open - who guarantees an "AlphaLife" model that could predict the whole geometry of life on Earth couldn't also model itself? It might be an issue of scale.The piece presents extremely weak arguments overall. What is the magic phase transition that happens once a model gets put in a body? It doesn't make any sense.The issues at the end about moral obligations are interesting though, much better than the opening arguments.

Cameron Berg @camhberg

@AdrienneLaF Dunning-Kruger effect on full display here. This line advertises ignorance about how the internals of frontier AI systems work, and why someone might be more concerned about why forward passes of vast networks roughly modeled after human neocortex might exhibit cognitive

retweets 1 likes 20 substance 6 · argument · rank 110 · Dismissing AI consciousness because it lacks a body or is just text prediction is weak. view on X ↗
GOON MASTER SOPHONT SIMP @SOPHONTSIMP
Affirming

All irrelevant to consciousness, removing skin, tear production, and hormonal disorder does not produce disorders of consciousness. It changes inputs into the brain, but none of these features distinguish conscious and nonconscious humans.

Cody Moser @LTF_01

Asking if LLMs are conscious is a category error: do LLMs have skin, what are LLM tears made of, what is the hormonal system of an LLM?

retweets 0 likes 25 substance 6 · argument · rank 90 · Skin, tears, and hormones are irrelevant to whether an entity can be conscious. view on X ↗
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Simon Roy - KICKSTARTER IS TAKING LATE PLEDGES @simonroyart

I think we need to encounter other conscious beings before we can tally up the criteria. Making clever imitative objects that match human behaviour in text form isn’t quite the same as the phenomonological occurrence of a thing which is a thing (or so I intuitively feel)

Cody Moser @LTF_01

Removing metabolism and sensing does.