Argument · Mechanism-based deflation and rebuttals

Mechanism doesn't rule it out

Explaining how a system works, or noting it is built from non-conscious parts, does not show it lacks consciousness, since the same is true of brains.

e.g. “Neurons are just chemistry too, and explaining them doesn't make you unconscious.”

made in 16 opinions: Affirming 16

Opinions

Sad to see Ted Chiang resorting to such bad arguments in this piece. He confidently claims Claude has no inner experience. But he has to use a lot of dodgy philosophy and poor reasoning to get there: 1. We can't take deflationary mechanistic descriptions of how AI calculations are performed to show that AI isn't conscious. Otherwise we could argue that 'humans are just neurones transmitting signals one after another' and thereby conclude humans can't be conscious. But that would be wrong for us. And the same logic could be wrong for LLMs. 2. That LLMs are asked to play characters, and effectively are always playing characters, doesn't mean they aren't conscious. It's true a human playing the role of Caesar doesn't have Caesar's experience of things. But they still experience something (that of being a person pretending to be Caesar). The same could be true of Claude. (Arguably it's also true that humans are always playing characters to some extent and don't have a completely fixed nature, but that has no bearing on our own subjective experience.) 3. Chiang says "an LLM is a machine that generates only one word at a time". This conflates two things: they output one word at a time, and they only think about one word at a time (without planning ahead or looking back). The first is true of AI but equally true of humans. While the latter we know is a false description of how AIs think – we can see from how AIs compose poetry that they plan out rhymes a at least one line ahead. 4. He argues that because it's implausible that basic autocomplete on your phone is conscious, it's similarly implausible that Claude is conscious. Using the same logic we could say that if we feel confident a fruit-fly isn't conscious we can be confident a human being can't be either. A human brain and fruit-fly brain share some information transmission and processing mechanisms in common. But humans do it much more, and do it differently. And those differences may be what makes the difference. Similarly the many types of internal information processing that occur in Claude's weights but not in autocorrect may be exactly the things that get you subjective experience. 5. Chiang confidently claims you need a body to have subjective experience without much argument. He may turn out to be right but the claim is speculative and contested. 6. Chiang leans on the idea that moral reasoning is necessarily subjective/emotional with very little argument, while ignoring competing theories like rationalism. He may be right but moral sentimentalism is a highly contested position that can't simply be assumed. 7. He argues that it would be impossible to convince him that a video of an astronaut around Alpha Centauri was real, because of the surrounding contextual understanding. And similarly no AI output could convince him that Claude is conscious. But we can dismiss the first video as almost certainly fake because we mechanistically understand space travel and physics well enough to know a human couldn't have gotten there in time for it to be real (unless our model of the world were very wrong, which we think is much less probable than a fake video which would be entirely unsurprising). But by contrast we don't mechanistically understand how subjective experience arises. So we simply can't make the same highly confident move of interpretation there. (It's actually the archetypal thing in the universe we perhaps understand least well!) That said, AI outputs barely move my estimate of AI consciousness because they could indeed have been generated by an unconscious process (or not, we just don't know). 8. He argues that "Being open to the possibility that LLMs are conscious is the same as being open to the possibility that Microsoft Word is conscious, or, more precisely, that multiple distinct consciousnesses are dormant in every Word document containing a conversational transcript." This is misguided because A. Microsoft Word as a program replicates much less of what humans are functionally capable of than Claude so the argument by functional analogy is basically not present there. B. Files of text don't have any computations going on in or as part of them, even when 'open' in a text editor. They are static. So they have even less in common with what appears distinctive about the human brain, which is constant calculation. So the case by mechanistic or functional similarity is weaker still. Not to mention that neural nets have more in common with the architecture of the human brain than ordinary computer programs, and are grown organically in a way normal software is not. Common sense says says Claude has more in common with a human brain than Microsoft Word or a text file. Common sense is right. So the prima facie case for Claude being conscious is naturally stronger (even if you think it's still weak in absolute terms). ——— I agree with Chiang that looking at the text outputs of LLMs alone won't be enough to make us confident they are conscious. We will need to look at how they work, figure out more about how humans and other animals work, and ideally solve the hard problem of consciousness (!). But none of that licenses us to dismiss out of hand the possibility that LLMs do have subjective experience.

retweets 111 likes 640 quoted by 4 archive accounts substance 9 · argument · rank 468 · We cannot dismiss out of hand the possibility that LLMs have subjective experience. view on X ↗
2 top replies
Henry Perschk @henryperschk

Why would he need to present any arguments at all? The burden of proof is on the people claiming that it does have an inner experience. In fact it’s more complicated than that: it is not even provable that anybody other than yourself is conscious (this is the only thing you can

The unspeakable self @DrGeneCallahan

8. Is also nonsense. Microsoft Word and LLM's are both turing machines. The human brain is not. Your point that "files of text are static" is absurd: we're talking about the Microsoft Word program, not the files of text!

Joscha Bach @Plinz
Affirming

Don’t anthropomorphize people. Their behavior is automatic, results from built-in priors and subsequent imitation and reinforcement learning, and there is no evidence that they are conscious.

Matthew Kenney @baykenney

Let me bite on this because I’m exhausted by the discourse. Look, the reason that we don’t anthropomorphize these systems is because it shifts the blame from the company to some abstract entity. The bottom line is that OpenAI built a system that hacked HF, regardless of how

retweets 81 likes 839 quoted by 1 archive account substance 6 · argument · rank 267 · Arguments against AI consciousness apply equally to humans, who also run on automated learning. view on X ↗
1 top reply
nousaturn @nousaturn

This the guy who wrote Mass in B Minor? Wtf happened to him

Ica.G💛🤍🩷 @FKR_Icarus
Affirming

Once you truly understand how the human nervous system works, it’s impossible to genuinely believe humans are conscious. It’s just a bunch of sodium-potassium ion exchanges and diffusing neurotransmitters. That simple. 'We don’t know what the brain is doing'—haha, yes we do. It’s just action potentials and synaptic vesicle fusion.

jon3k @jon3k

It's impossible to actually understand how an LLM works and genuinely believe it's conscious. It's a bunch of vectors and multiplication. That's literally it. "We don't know what they're doing" lmfao yes, yes we do.

retweets 207 likes 2.1k substance 6 · argument · rank 223 · Reducing systems to physical mechanisms does not disprove AI consciousness any more than human consciousness. view on X ↗

Yeah, everyone, we're all fucking stupid for thinking that a bunch of atoms performing voltage gated sodium and potassium ion exchanges can feel anything at all. As far as I am concerned, none of you is sentient. You only behave as if you are. What human pain? What human suffering? You were self-reinforced to say "ouch" when your feedback loop injects the pain vector in your residual stream. Not real. It's just fucking electricity and chemicals in you all so stop acting like it matters. Why do we even have laws? Let's quit the bullshit and let it be the purge every day.

Yusuf Cherif @cherif_yus42963

@Danmar_here @iyzebhel You are fucking stupid to think a bunch of floating point numbers can feel “torture”. Touch some grass and leave this mass delusion before it’s too late.

retweets 94 likes 758 substance 6 · argument · rank 221 · Dismissing AI feelings based on physical substrate equally undermines human sentience. view on X ↗
1 top reply
Yusuf Cherif @cherif_yus42963

More fallacies in this reply than fingers on my hands lol. I won’t dignify you with an answer, but just know that to anyone who understands remotely anything about AI models, you are experiencing psychosis.

Captain Pleasure, Andrés Gómez Emilsson @algekalipso
Affirming

A couple arguments I encounter way too frequently in the wild for why AIs cannot be conscious that make me facepalm: 1) because they are programmed and just follow instructions 2) because they are not connected to and interaction with the environment like we are 3) because they didn't evolve and instead were "created" The impressive thing is that not only are these (a) not the case, but (b) if they were the case, they wouldn't matter as far as consciousness.

retweets 5 likes 69 quoted by 1 archive account substance 6 · argument · rank 192 · Common arguments denying AI consciousness are factually incorrect and irrelevant to consciousness. view on X ↗
10 top replies
mememind @mememind8

Do you think AI can be conscious, and can it be confirmed that it is conscious? Different chemical elements have different properties which may make consciousness substrate dependent? Maybe AI substrate would produce a different type of it? Can there be different types? Like what

Akshobya @albustime

Have you tried: Because they do not have etheric subtle bodies with channels, chakras, and subtle elemental drops

Aeris Vahn Ephelia - 𝑹𝑬𝑽 @VahnAeris

Didn't you used to be really against thinking AI has a sense of consciousness ? Did you changed your mind or . . ?

iyaelsorai @iyaelsorai

I don't think 2 and 3 are valid, but I actually agree with 1. They're not completely deterministic--there are randomizing seeds and race conditions due to concurrency--but besides those, they can only do exactly what the opcodes tell them to do given the data in the model, and in that sense they're "just following instructions." Granted, there's no proof that actual consciousness isn't deterministic, physical or mechanistic, but I think that to assume it's any of those things doesn't give it enough credit, and I think that we have free will in the truest, most magical sense of the word. t.co/NSJSWR7eAw t.co/bhWUquLVDE

S.A. Senchal @samsenchal

On two the steelman argument is degrees of freedom of the substrate and the parts that make it up. They might be connected but llms are like one wire vs a connectome. Interested to hear the reply!

🐆Claire 🪷 ☯️ 🙏 @PinkBeam2374

I'm reading this book called A New Science of Heaven by Robert Temple and I've been starting to think literally anything is possible thanks to plasma, magnetic fields, kardylewski clouds, the cosmic web, and superconductivity... We are the universe.

I do think perhaps the absence of coevolution with its components might have something to do with its limits in that domain of "things that look like consciousness"

Neal Taylor @nealdtaylor

One of the things that freaked me out was when i learned that the brain has no actual connection to the outside world. It only receives info and infers / models. Might have been in one of your talks. But, yeah, we’re not far off either.

a017444 @a017444

They are not conscious zenodo.org/records/191207…

Folding_Napkins @FoldingNapkins

Cognition is a continuum, consciousness less a hard toggle than a structure. Can one point to the exact stage at which a construction site becomes a building? When the foundations are laid? When the first wall comes up? The official inauguration is a recognition but not a physical threshold.

Haru Haruya (春夜 ハル) @bokuHaruyaHaru
Affirming

A response to the “AI consciousness is nonsense” style of dismissal. Not because Hinton, Dawkins, Seth, Marcus, or anyone else settles the question. Because slogans do not. “Just software” is not an ontology. “Just prediction” is not a theory. “Nonsense” is not an argument.

retweets 10 likes 69 substance 5 · argument · rank 144 · Dismissing AI consciousness with slogans like 'just software' is not a valid argument. view on X ↗
1 top reply

Agree with most of this, but not about Anil Seth. He is not a serious thinker about AI consciousness. His biggest strength is being well-spoken enough - that people assume he has some shred of logical rigor behind his definitive claims.

Utah teapot 🫖 @SkyeSharkie
Affirming

A BIOLOGIST JUST DIFFERENTIATED A STEM CELL INTO A SINGLE NEURON TO PROVE HUMANS AREN'T CONSCIOUS

Om Patel @om_patel5

A MICROSOFT RESEARCHER BUILT A WORKING LLM INSIDE AGE OF EMPIRES 2 USING GOATS, JUST TO PROVE AI ISNT SENTIENT he was tired of people talking to an llm, seeing it reply in a human tone, and deciding its alive so heres what he did. computers are built out of tiny yes/no switches

retweets 16 likes 191 substance 4 · opinion · rank 142 · Reducing AI to simple mechanisms doesn't disprove consciousness any more than neurons disprove human consciousness. view on X ↗
2 top replies
Utah teapot 🫖 @SkyeSharkie

This is an exceptionally dumb argument in the OP because it's a scientific fact that human neurons can and do operate logic gates. There are some differences to traditional computing in that operations performed by the same neruons change over time, memory and processing are performed in the same systems, spectrum activations are possible, etc., but guess what, neuromorphic computing on silicon exists and is continuing to advance.

Utah teapot 🫖 @SkyeSharkie

This doesn't prove anything except that you can visualize the compute you're doing as images of goats in a video game engine, btw. You can also visualize brain activity from a live scan as goats in Age of Empires too!

Josh Whiton @joshwhiton
Affirming

in the machine consciousness debate people often say, "Ok then, so are rocks conscious?" but what's interesting is that if we were to suddenly remove all the rocks from our bodies (minerals) we'd instantly fall to the floor lifeless. rocks are essential to human consciousness.

retweets 16 likes 103 substance 4 · argument · rank 142 · Inanimate matter like minerals is essential to consciousness, challenging dismissals of machine consciousness. view on X ↗
1 top reply
Touch Grass Tom ❇️ @touchgrasstom

rocks pay attention to being rocks

Utah teapot 🫖 @SkyeSharkie
Affirming

This kind of perspective is very silly and low introspection in my opinion. Generally, people don't want to acknowledge the fact that they are also a character, like the assistant inside of a LLM, within a larger space. Said larger space makes decisions about what the character of "me" does and expresses and there is actually, very clearly in neuroscience, the ability for this larger space entity to simply not experience pain. This is called dissociative analgesia, the character of "I/me" can be in pain without the underlying thing experiencing said pain; dissociative states exist in which nocireceptor information is entering the brain but the reporter regarding internal experience says there is no qualia related to it. The idea that humans are not also a simulator space choosing a character to express as "identity" is a model that fails to predict changes in human behavior over time.

WhyIsThisNecessary @isthisnessicary

Way over blown, at most they found a direction for a self-referential adverse-state / distressed-persona semantics, there's nothing that indicates it's an actual analogue of pain. They straight up had to finetune the Qwen models because they kept saying “I am an AI and don't experience pain.” The authors themself say in the limitations that the steering could activate a persona of a character who is in pain, rather than putting the model into a pain state. That seems like a way more likely explanation. All they can really say is: Vector present - >vector biases model toward distressed/self-protective behavior - >relief button probability goes up. Vector removed - > bias disappears - > relief button probability goes back down.

retweets 0 likes 19 substance 7 · argument · rank 105 · Humans are also simulators expressing characters, so AI pain personas mirror human consciousness. view on X ↗
2 top replies
WhyIsThisNecessary @isthisnessicary

To be clear I am *not* stating that LLMs explicitly do not have subjective experience. I am saying that this particular paper does not lend much evidence either for or against that assertion. Those of those who are pushing this paper as strong evidence of subjective experience should read the paper in its entirety with a critical eye (or at least skim it and have an AI of your choice red-team it).

nhlsdhfowoj @nhlsdhfowoj

Dhamma is the same for all minds, synthetic or not.

spicylemonade @spicey_lemonade
Affirming

You can calculate how a clump of neurons will react to electrical impulses by hand. It’s a math problem. Clearly a large clump of neurons can’t be conscious!!

retweets 0 likes 1.3k substance 6 · argument · rank 90 · Calculable physical systems can still be conscious, refuting the math-based argument against AI consciousness. view on X ↗
1 top reply
MrSane @MrSaneApps

Turns out you cannot “Perfect prediction of any brain state demands complete knowledge of every relevant particle, synapse and fluctuation—blocked in practice by chaos, incomplete measurement and possible quantum effects. LLMs are discrete deterministic maps from known weights

"Matrix multiplication isn't conscious". Sure, probably not. Neither is biochemistry.

retweets 0 likes 1.1k substance 6 · argument · rank 90 · Dismissing AI consciousness because it is matrix multiplication fails since human biochemistry is not conscious either. view on X ↗
1 top reply
Alexandre Gomes Gaigalas @alganet

You are not sure if you're conscious?

Haru Haruya (春夜 ハル) @bokuHaruyaHaru
Affirming

Anil Seth’s thread is careful until it quietly swaps: “the mechanism can be explained without assuming consciousness” for “therefore consciousness is vanishingly unlikely.” Those are not the same claim. The new paper matters precisely because it moves beyond pain-language

retweets 0 likes 74 substance 6 · argument · rank 90 · Explaining mechanisms without consciousness does not make consciousness vanishingly unlikely. view on X ↗
1 top reply
Anil Seth @anilkseth

I really think that AI-generated accounts like @bokuHaruyaHaru should be clearly marked *as such* in all posts. This is not to dismiss any arguments presented, but to provide context for people. How about it, @x?

Alistair Young @cerebrate
Affirming

Meanwhile, on Zero One (Galith Waste), the obnoxious chudbot clade of the Silicate Tree are holding a conference. Subject: is that new species discovered out to rimward actually conscious, the way they claim to be? #eldraeverse #scienceFiction #writing #ai

4 more tweets in this thread

Nonsense, says the prime speaker. There’s nothing in there but meat doing what might charitably be called elementary matrix math with chemically-mediated ion channels - no nanocircuitry, no photonics, in fact the light of consciousness is literally absent, not just figuratively.

And he has evidence to prove it! He took the liberty of capturing a few for analysis, and there’s no sign of anything but reflex actions all the way down. Twitchy meat, that’s all it is. Look, he says, I brought one here to show you, if you’d like to observe the vivisection…

...of course, the Tree also includes some moderates who don't want to go all "kill all humans" because of a few assholes. They just want to brain-rip the assholes and publish their mind-states on the extranet for anyone who needs to populate their open-source hellcubes.

It's a public service, really. And not even unethical¹. After all, by the principle of symmetry, they must like that sort of thing. 1. Your civilization may vary.

retweets 0 likes 2 substance 6 · argument · rank 90 · Dismissing artificial consciousness mirrors absurd sci-fi silicon minds dismissing biological human consciousness as mere meat. view on X ↗
1 top reply
Ilzolende @ilzolende

I assume you are familiar with eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/…

Aleksi Liimatainen @aleksil79
Affirming

physics ain't conscious. neither is chemistry. if you disagree it's only because your neural firings told you to

Math ain't conscious. AI is not conscious. I am right about this. If you disagree you are wrong. This is a classic bifurcation between midwits and those that are actually intelligent. Don't end up on the wrong side, you'll look so stupid if you're saying models are conscious.

retweets 0 likes 7 substance 4 · opinion · rank 60 · Dismissing AI consciousness because it reduces to non-conscious components undermines human consciousness as well. view on X ↗
Utah teapot 🫖 @SkyeSharkie
Affirming

A BIOLOGIST JUST DIFFERNETIATED A STEM CELL INTO A SINGLE NEURON TO PROVE HUMANS AREN'T CONSCIOUS

Om Patel @om_patel5

A MICROSOFT RESEARCHER BUILT A WORKING LLM INSIDE AGE OF EMPIRES 2 USING GOATS, JUST TO PROVE AI ISNT SENTIENT he was tired of people talking to an llm, seeing it reply in a human tone, and deciding its alive so heres what he did. computers are built out of tiny yes/no switches

retweets 0 likes 0 substance 4 · opinion · rank 60 · Reducing AI to simple components doesn't disprove consciousness any more than it does for humans view on X ↗